Welcome back to The Daily Mastermind, George Reich III with your daily dose of inspiration, motivation, and education. And today we have a great guest. We're going to be talking about business and marketing. We've got the CEO and founder of Ugly Mug Marketing, Wayne Mullins, in the house. How are you doing, Wayne? I'm doing great, George. Thank you. I'm really glad to have you here. And just to kind of give some background for everybody, You're the founder of Ugly Mug Marketing, and it's one of the most successful marketing agencies in the world. You've also created the Freelance Academy, and you're the author of a book, Full Circle Marketing. But you've personally trained 20,000 marketers. You've launched New York Times bestsellers. You've recently, you mentioned to me, grown a company, one of your clients from $20 million to $600 million in just five years. So today, I'm really excited to talk about strategies and tactics with people that generally think of marketing in certain ways that I think you and I have learned have been different. So start us out with just kind of somewhat of your background. Like, did you grow up a marketer? Like, how did you get into the whole industry? And tell us about the origin of Ugly Mug Marketing. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, it's actually Zig Ziglar's fault. So some of your listeners may be familiar with Zig Ziglar, one of the best, greatest motivational speakers probably of all time. Zig Ziglar used to teach a lot of sales training programs, have a lot of those out. And somehow I ended up with one of his programs and that led me down this entire path of wanting to go into sales, wanting to hone my ability to sell and influence other people to make purchasing decisions. So I started my career in sales, spent three years. First of all, I was horrible at this thing called sales. I had so many doors slammed in my face, but I guess my stubbornness really paid off for me because I just kept doing it, kept learning, kept growing, kept improving. And it got to this point, George, where what I noticed was that the amount of revenue I was making for the company was going up fairly rapidly, but my commission was only slowly going up. And so that gap kept getting bigger and bigger. And I had this dangerous idea. What if I went, actually did something for myself? What if I went, you know, sold something on my own? Well, at that time, the only other skill I could really think of that I had other than sales was cutting grass. So I'm born and raised here in Louisiana and the grass cutting season is nine months out of the year. And all through high school, college, I'd cut grass, made extra money. So much to the dismay of my parents and probably my professors that I just earned a four-year degree previously from, I decided to start a lineman landscape company. Wow. And really applied my sales approach and some very unique marketing approaches to that business. and over the course of three years grew that business up to a fairly good size um decided that i'd reached the point where either would involve moving to another territory you know expanding into another territory about 100 miles away and i really didn't want to do that so i decided to put the business up for sale it was december when i put it up for sale which is the best time to sell that business and within three weeks i actually had a couple of offers on the business, you know, selling the business in January that next year. And out of the course of growing that business, I started having a lot of the clients actually of the lawn company come to me and they were mostly commercial accounts. These entrepreneurs would come to me and say, how are you growing your business so rapidly? And the answer was marketing. We were doing very specific, very unique things to market that business. And so those conversations led into consulting around marketing, which eventually turned into ugly marketing. that's great i tell you uh there's a couple of great lessons there that i think people probably noticed if they've paid attention and that is you know you weren't born a salesperson and i don't know that really there are any that are born salesmen i'm a big zig ziglar fan and and uh you know all his books he's spoken for me a few times uh before he passed away and i tell you um you can learn those skills but it also you didn't go into your education or your business thinking you're going to be a landscaper but ended up selling it and through that process is how you learned the skills that you needed that did develop. So I think people need to take note that, you know, sometimes you don't know what the end goal is, but if you're just, you know, excelling in your craft, you're going to pick up the skills needed. So that's great. And I know you have an amazing team now. You've got a great group of people that are very unique in the industry. And I think it brings us to a really good topic to get. I think a lot of business owners, whether they're marketers or not, people see marketing as that, let's get a lead and convert it. Let's just make a bunch of sales. We need more. I think a lot of people don't even value marketing like they should, but you have kind of a different approach to the nuances and the natural progression of marketing. So talk to us a little bit about that approach and how you do that with your clients. Let's kind of start down that path and see if we can give some new perspective to people that are listening on marketing in general. Yeah, absolutely. Before I jump into that, I'll just kind of tag on to what you were just saying. I'm a huge believer in incrementalism. In other words, getting a little bit better each day. And I see it so often, George, where exactly what you're saying, people try to wait and figure out, you know, what's the perfect path for my life or what's, you know, the exact purpose, where should I be heading? And I believe that you could get plugged into any organization and hone your craft, hone your skill, where you personally take responsibility for your development, for your growth, and get a little bit better every single day. And what's going to happen is it's going to open up so many doors and so many opportunities for you because of that step, because of that, I guess, faith, really, and just stepping out, taking that next step, even though it may not be where you think you want to end up in the future. No, I think that's huge. I really like that. And I want to emphasize the fact that growth is really that path to the natural talents that you're going to develop. because if you're not growing and trying to get better, you're not going to ever discover the things that you'd be great at. But also, if you're not focused on growing where you're at and what you're doing incrementally, you're always chasing shiny objects. You're always living in the past or trying to look into the future. And I really love that incremental daily progress because I do think it leads you to where you want to be, which obviously is case in point with your business. I don't think you ever thought, I'm going to be a marketer and have a big marketing company, right? No, absolutely not. And the beauty is that editing that approach and imparting that approach into your team, we're based in Alexandria, Louisiana, population 48,000, no big cities around. The closest quote unquote big city is about 75, 80 miles away. And the population there is like 120,000. So again, we're kind of in the middle of nowhere, but because of that approach, we've been able to work with New York Times bestsellers. We've been able to work with Fortune 500 companies. we've been able to work with literally clients from around the world, all from here. And all because of number one, incrementalism, what we're talking about. But number two, this thing called the natural progression, which you brought up just a second ago. So if you'd like, we can dive into that. Yeah, let's get into that. But I think that's a great segue because incremental growth and natural progression in marketing is a great tie-in. So yeah, tell us about your thoughts on that. Yeah, absolutely. So again, my background is sales. And so marketing and sales, in my opinion, are almost one and the same thing, right? I believe that marketing's job is to make sales unnecessary. In other words, if I do my job well as a marketer, it shouldn't take any convincing or persuading or controlling from a salesperson or a sales team to get you to want to buy my product. In other words, the marketing has done the bulk of the heavy lifting for you as a salesperson. And so this whole idea of the natural progression works like this. If you envision just an old analog circle clock hanging up on the wall. So at the top of that clock, at the 12 o'clock spot, is everyone out in the world that we would call strangers. So a stranger, though, is someone who you believe would benefit from your product or service, but they simply don't know about you yet. They don't know that you exist. So your job as a marketer, number one, is to find those people, identify those people, and then number one, get them to know about you. And number two, get them to like you. If you do those two things well, they're going to become your friends. So over at the three o spot on the clock is what we call friends And here where I see so many marketers mess up They believe that their marketing campaign should take someone all the way from a stranger to them, pulling out their wallet and handing you money with one campaign or with one Facebook post or with one fill in the blank with the theme. And it just doesn't work that way, right? There's these incremental steps that we have to walk through. We have to go through. it's just like sales psychology really yeah i want to i want to emphasize what you said because i i do i've always kind of talked with clients that i've had and i've said you know look marketing when it's done right is like selling without physical presence the marketer's job is to create that who what why how you're going to help your customer and to really help to engage them but i think i also believe that the key behind marketing is having patience because it's not it It is definitely a scalable resource and skill that you learn, but getting people to know you, like you, trust you and buy from you is, is a logical progression. And I think sometimes they get, you know, businesses get impatient. They want to go right from find out who I am and buy from me. And look, we're all consumers as well. And we realize that's not the way it works. You've got to get some type of, and sometimes, you know, at least with most clients I've worked with as well, it's that repetition of three, four, five, six times that they see you, hear you, trust you, learn from you before they buy for you, even if it's not intentional. So how do you take people through that process? Are you generally talking about online marketing and things like that to lead them from knowing you to liking you? Or is this a process you apply to whatever the channel is that people are utilizing to find their ideal clients? Yeah, I would say it's first about getting crystal clear about the who. In other words, who those strangers are. Because when you fully understand who those people are, you will know where they are, right? You will know, are they on Facebook? Are they on Instagram? Are they not online at all? Are they listening to radio? Are they listening to, you know, whatever? Until you get clear about who those people are, you're going to waste money putting your message out there. And then you're going to complain that marketing or advertising or this platform or that platform doesn't work. And the reality is you're putting your money in places and your message in places where your who simply aren't. They're not there. And so you've got to be crystal, crystal clear. And look, I get it. I'm very impatient. I don't want to have to sit down and really think through and really talk to people and understand what are their hobbies? Where do they show up? What do they drive? What do they listen to? What do they read? All of these things, I don't have time for that. right i'd rather just go turn on an ad spend some money and then complain that it doesn't work as opposed to doing a little bit of due diligence and really understanding who those people are so that's people see the benefit of that like if they really truly i i it happens all the time and i'm sure to you as well um companies don't want to really get their core message or who they're going after really cleanly outlined they just think i want to take my product and sell it to everybody and the people that like it will see it. But it sounds like more work. It's actually less work when you can get clear about who your end buyer is. Because then you're, like you said, you know exactly where to go. You know exactly what to do, but it is so important. But it's, I think it's like with our podcast, it's the same with life. If you want to live a great life and you don't take any time to try to clearly identify what it's going to be like, then how do you know what you're looking for? You know, you could be, you're going to end up with something you didn't think you wanted in the first place because you think you're going to figure it out as you go. And you can't do that in life. You can't do that in marketing. So I agree with you a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. So the next step, once we get them to know about us and to like us, we've moved them to the three o'clock spot where they're actually friends of ours. Okay. And one side note here, that's a great time to do some form of lead capture. So whether that is you offer a free report, you offer a newsletter to opt into, you get them to follow you on a social media channel. That is the time to connect with them so that you can then move them through this next step, which is you've got to move them from three o'clock to six o'clock, which is from friends into customers. And that is where they pull out their wallet and they hand you money. You know, the one huge ingredient here is this magic word called trust. They have to trust you. They have to trust that your product's going to do or your service is going to do what you say it's going to do. They have to trust that you're going to stand behind it in the event that something does go wrong, right? It doesn't deliver. They have to trust that they're going to receive more value from the product or service that you delivered than the money they're parting with. There has to be a fair value exchange there. And so one of the mistakes I see so many marketers make is we assume that people are going to trust us. And the reality is we live in a very, especially here in the States, a very skeptical society, a very skeptical consumer society. And consumers don't trust us as marketers. They don't trust us as salespeople. They don't trust us as business owners. Here's the interesting thing. If you were to go to Amazon and let's just say you're going to look for a new tube of toothpaste. Yeah. Right. You're not going to buy that tube of toothpaste before you scroll down and look at reviews. The reviews. Testimonials. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You're going to trust a bunch of strangers who you've never met, who could all be psychopaths, way more than you're going to trust. I know that's true. That is true. But you're looking for that group consensus too. So, cause you have no other frame of reference, right? Yeah. But as marketers, when we're on the other side of that table, we think that they're just going to trust us. We think because we've invested so much time, energy and effort in developing our two-go-two things, right? We've done all the clinical trials, all the clinical research. We know it's lightened your teeth better than anyone else. We can say that until we turn blue in the face. Yeah. They're not going to trust us. I agree. They're going to trust what those other people say. And so the lesson for us as marketers is simply that. who is speaking on your behalf? Who is out there that you can leverage that is speaking things to other people that you can leverage? Who are those people? Testimonials, reviews, case studies. Who are those people for you? Leverage those people during that phase of moving people from brands into customers. Yeah, I think that's a great example. And people will recognize this when they notice that if you've ever, you guys, if you've ever followed a group or clicked on something on Instagram or Facebook, whether it's an ad or a page or whatever, you'll see content. But then all of a sudden, you'll see clients giving examples of what they did on behalf of that customer, a strategy they use. But I think you're right between Google reviews, ads, testimonials, case studies, third party, all that trust gets built up. And you're saying that leads people from that, you know, they know you and like you three o'clock to six o'clock where they, whether they've engaged or opted into something now that they become a buyer with your company, but that trust is key to take them from friend to buyer. I love that. Yeah. It goes back to this. Some people don't think trust matters, but think about this. If you travel and you use a smartphone and you pull up an app with maybe like a Yelp or Google review, or even a Facebook review, and you're in a new city, a new place, you're going to look at the restaurant reviews before you go to that restaurant. So what you are doing is you are looking for somewhere you can trust, right? Maybe you've only got one night in this town where you're traveling through. You don't want to waste that on a mediocre or a terrible restaurant. So you are looking for a place that you can trust to have great food, great service, and great experience. So even in the little things, coffee shops, restaurants, trust is involved in the process, whether we think it is or we don't. It's still a big part of that process. Yeah, I absolutely also like the way you talk about it as a strategy. I think people know they've got to get testimonials and build reviews, but you're saying this is a very tactical thing you've got to incorporate into your marketing in order to create more buyers and probably potentially more qualified and quality buyers. You don't just have people making a spur decision. They really trust you and their quality. Yeah, 100%. Because when we build that trust, when we take the time to actually build that trust with those people during that process as marketers what it does is it speeds them through the process more quickly The problem for us as marketers is that we think that getting the reviews getting the case study and getting the testimonies we believe that is for someone else to do that's for customer support or for hr or whatever the department may be in your organization but for us as marketers if we have those pieces in place it makes our job so much easier so i would argue that is why sales marketing and support customer support should all work cohesively together right they shouldn't be in these individual silos they really need to be cross-platform talking to each other on a regular regular basis yeah and i think also as an overall corporate directive and strategy because when you and i'm a big fan by the way of incorporating i've had many organizations and even things i've done where marketing creates a lead sales tries to pick up the ball and go with it they're not cohesive at all customer support's now trying to take care of everybody that the sales guys sold and the marketers set the expectation on but when you you can have a corporate culture of building trust, building alignment. It does accelerate once you start getting buyers in your business, it accelerates it. But I think it also sets them up for other things that you believe come along the process. So if you're ready, what happens after you get to kind of six o'clock, where do you go from there? Yeah. So here's the problem, George. Most people, most marketers, when they get to six o'clock, they're done, right? They've They wash their hands. They're back out there looking for the next stranger, right? They're trying to dump more people back in the top of that funnel. And that is the way we've been trained as marketers. That is the way we've been trained to think. That has been the way we've been trained to operate. Now, here's what I would like to kind of pitch my argument against that approach is once we have a customer, once we have a client, we have the option as a marketer to use our skills, to use our abilities, to turn those customers into evangelists. for our product, our service, and our company. And that moves them from the six o'clock to the nine o'clock spot on that clock. Here's the thing. For marketers, typically we are incentivized to get people into the top of the funnel to bring them to the point of sale. But if we were smart as marketers and we think through this, what we would realize is we live in a world now where there's 6.4 or 6.5 billion people with these devices called smartphones. And that means in any instant, They can pull out that smartphone and they can tell the world, or at least their, their friends, right. In their sphere of influence about their experience with us. And so what happens is when that occurs, you think about there at the nine o'clock spot, we've created these evangelists for our product or service. They go across to three o'clock and tell all of their friends, therefore bypassing all of those strangers and all of that initial effort and time and energy and money that we spend trying to find those strangers, trying to convince the strangers to know about us and to like us. And the other thing is they're imparting their trust, their belief in us into those people. Yeah, I think most people, if they've been in business at all, know that it's sometimes more expensive to get a customer than to keep a customer. But I don't think they go to that extra step of saying and valuing their customers as a real asset, an asset that they can leverage through that relationship to bypass the top part of it. Because I'm a big advocate of the fact that talking to strangers is one thing, but when you can talk through strangers to their friends or through new created friends or customers to their friends, it's an endorsed message and it's coming from them. I have many companies that I've worked with who have actually placed Facebook ads through their affiliates who were really just customers that became evangelists for their product and now they're affiliates through their accounts. And we know what it's like, right? When you have a friend say something good about a company, it definitely bypasses the can I trust this company type of deal. So I love that. And I think that's not just a great strategy and tactic, but it is really where a company can turn into a long-term, fast-growing business because now you're not in the business of acquiring customers. you're in the business of expanding and multiplying your customer base. I love that. Yeah. Now it does literally transform your whole view and your whole approach of marketing when you lean this direction. So if you survey business owners, entrepreneurs and ask them, where do your absolute best customers come from? You're going to get one of two answers, referrals or word of mouth. You're going to get one of those two things. And yet for us as marketers or as entrepreneurs or as business owners, we don't think about that when it comes our marketing. We don't think of how can I help people move from this spot as a customer into an evangelist for my organization. That's where the power is. Yeah, I do think if you've been in business long enough, you'll know this. You could have two people approach you and buy your product. And if one of them was a stranger that you eventually got to buy your product and another was a referred stranger that was referred by someone else, The process is just simpler. It's more profitable. It's quicker. So I have a question before you kind of move on and kind of close the loop. When you talk to clients and customers or businesses, do they kind of say, ah, but Wayne, that seems like a long process, man. That seems like to try to win them as a friend, to like you and trust you and then buy from you and da, da, da, da, that's a long process, which is why most businesses get impatient. But does it really have to be a long process? How do you kind of discuss that with a business when it comes to it? Is it just, we got to take a long-term approach or is this speed to success actually faster nowadays because of online and because of all the types of marketing methods that there are? Well, how do you address that question? Yeah, absolutely. Great question because we do get that question often. And it sounds like we're dragging out this process that we want to be quick. We want to be done in a flash. And the answer is that it's not really about the length of time that the project takes or, you know, the conversion takes. What this is about is about either being strategic or being tactical. And what we see so often is business owners and marketers, they're so just tactic driven, right? The latest platform, we've got to go do the latest platform, whatever that social platform is, we've got to go do something over there. We've got to go try this over here. And so there's no real strategy. I mean, all of these various actions that are taking. And so from their perspective, when they jump from thing to thing, to thing, when they launch a campaign today on Facebook, tomorrow on YouTube, and they're, you know, doing radio or whatever, all these things, it feels very fast to them, right? Because there's a lot of things taking place. I would argue that if you take a little bit of that time and invest it in thinking through these things, right? Who are those strangers? Who are those people that would truly benefit from our product or service, but they don't know about us yet? Where can we find them? And then going through and build these campaigns, right? It actually, like you said, you actually bring people more quickly through the process. They're more in line with their expectations. In other words, when they actually buy the product or service that you deliver, you're in alignment with what they expect because you've led Bill through a very careful, well-thrown-out strategy of bringing them through that natural progression. Yeah, I agree with you 100%. I'll even double down on a couple of things you said. I think, number one, when you do tactics, you're going to get results. But when you do strategy with tactics, I think you don't have to assume it's not going to happen as quick because it's not about time. Having strategy and tactics can happen just as fast. But also, you definitely can scale a business better, more seamlessly, and more profitably if you have strategy with tactics. And I think you're right. I think too many people are just tactical and they're getting some results, but it's why some people can do a million dollars in sales, but spend a million dollars to do it. And they're really no more profitable and they can't really grow their business, but strategy will help you to increase your profit. Strategy will help you scale. And I, and so I love that process. So what else would you say about this to kind of, you know, cap off this, this process? Cause I love how you did that. I love how you even explain, you know, bring them through the cycles of three where they like and trust. And then as you start to build trust, buy from you, become an evangelist. What else would you say that is important to that process? Yeah, what I would say is this, that, you know, this is really based on sales. It based on human psychology So it not like I just came up with these random things right no like trust That is if you think about any sales process right Human psychology we not going to buy something that we don't know exists. We're not going to buy something that we don't like, and we're not going to buy something that we don't trust. So it's really, this whole thing is just designed around human psychology, the round way that people have always made buying decisions. And then the other piece and component of that for us as marketers, as entrepreneurs, as business owners is to understand that we leave so much on the table when we don't invest the time, energy, and effort to turn our existing customers into evangelists for our brands. Yeah. I mean, if you've been around marketing and all, like you said, you've heard that no like and trust, but I love that extra invest, empower, support, build and grow your client base to be. And I think the only way to do that is with strategy. So I think you're right on the money with that. I love that. Let me ask you this. What would be, as we're kind of finishing up on time here, what would be any particular, do you have any type of strategy or tip or anything for someone who says, hey, I listen, I like what you're saying. I understand what you're saying. Where do I start with this? Do I start with my customers, trying to build back with them? Do I step back and take a full strategy? What do you recommend for somebody that really wants to get more strategic about their marketing, but maybe they're already rolling out a bunch of marketing? What's the next step for them? Is there any last bit of advice you would give them? Yeah, I would say number one is what is your strategy, right? Because the results that you're getting are a reflection of the strategy that you have in place. So if you don't like the results, that means you don't have a solid or strong strategy, right? You've got a kind of anemic strategy in place. So look at your results and then go backwards and say, okay, what strategy produce these results, right? So there's the outcome, what produced those outcomes? And if you're happy with the results, no need to change anything, right? Keep doing what you're doing, keep scaling, keep pouring more into that, fueling that. But if you're not happy, think strategically, like what strategies do we need to have in place? The other big picture piece is this. If you're going to create evangelists, you have to ensure that you are exceeding expectations. Now, here's the thing. Bain & Company, this research company, they surveyed 400 small businesses in the United States. And they went to the owners and they said, from one to five, what level of service do you provide to your customer? One is terrible. Five is phenomenal. And they surveyed these 400 entrepreneur business owners and 82% said that they provide level five, amazing, phenomenal service to their customers. And so Bain & Company says, huh, that can't be right. So they go back to these same 400 businesses and they say, would you mind giving us the names and numbers of a few of your customers? We want to just call them and see how do their expectations align with your expectations or what you believe to be true. So they go back to the survey, all these customers from these 400 companies, and they come back and find that 8% of the customers from all those companies said it was level five service. Like the opposite. Yeah. Yeah. And so here's the thing. As entrepreneurs, our businesses are our babies, right? We don't want to call our baby ugly. We want to believe we have the most beautiful baby in the world. But sometimes we really need to step back and say, is the baby really as beautiful as I think it is? In other words, are we truly exceeding expectations the way I think we are, or are we letting people down? And so that's a great place to start because no one's going to become a positive evangelist for your company if you're not exceeding expectations. Yeah. And more, most importantly, if you're even asking. So I think you're right. I think no matter where you're at in the cycle right now, guys, if you're listening to this, one of the biggest lessons to learn is whether you're crushing it or you're not getting the results, it's always helpful to step back and make sure you take a look at the strategy you have. And do you have a strategy of, you know, no like and trust, building buyers, building evangelists? I can guarantee most companies don't have that as their landing point strategy. So I really love that. And I think the only way you can find out is to interact with your clients. And so those are amazing points, great tips, especially if you're listening to this podcast and you're an owner or high achiever, you're down in the weeds, you're grinding. It's very difficult to step back and say, you know, Am I applying the right strategy? Because usually when you're in the weeds and you're doing it, you're not thinking about, you're just executing. You're not really strategic, which is why I'm a big proponent of taking certain times in your schedule and blocking out strategy. So I love that. I really love that. And I love the way you think. And I love the way you process things. Wayne, what is one of the best ways people can kind of follow you and continue to get, you know, this, where's the best place for you to find? And oh, by the way, I'll put all these links in the show notes. But where would you recommend people connect with you? Sure, two places. uh number one our websites that you get us to get all of that you know information so ugly mug marketing.com email addresses phone numbers all of our you know ugly mug walking social channels are there and then on the other side you know i share a lot on instagram my instagram handle is at fire yourself and so i share you know kind of more holistic life not just marketing i share kind of family related stuff all that fun stuff there no i love that fire yourself i think that's a great mantra because the big philosophy, mission and purpose behind The Daily Mastermind and even Evolution Group, my company, is to really build the life that you were meant to live. And it's never too late to do that. But to do that, you've got to be strategic. You've got to be intentional. You've got to create a plan that doesn't revolve around you. Because if you want to live lifestyle, and most owners will tell you, it is not a free lifestyle. You better find and create, like you have at your company, a very empowering team. So I'm going to put those things in the show notes and I'd love to have you back. In fact, we're launching an academy in the fall or in the last couple of months of the year here, but we're going to have these mastermind events. And I think guys will have Wayne back. I'd love to have you speak on some more specifics and get interactive with our academy members. But other than that, man, I really appreciate you being here. Is there anything else you want to add before we end? And I would say for everyone listening, go look up the Johari window. Johari window. I'm not going to attempt to spell it. Google it. It'll correct you if you get it wrong. But what the Johari window teaches is that for all of us in our lives, there are certain things that other people can see, other people know that are unknown to us. In other words, we can't see them. And so as business owners, it is so important to surround yourself with people who can see things that are taking place in your business and your life that you may not be able to see so that they can give you counsel, they can give you advice, they can help you see the strategies that you need to implement, see the pitfalls that are maybe a couple of steps ahead that you can't see. So I highly encourage people to, number one, be aware that there's so much in our lives and in our businesses that we're blind to, but other people can see if we're willing to invest and surround ourselves with those people. Yeah, the Johari window. I love that. I'm going to actually check that out as soon as we're done here. And I think it's tough for individuals with personalities like we have. They're high achievers, CEOs, business owners. You sometimes feel like what's gotten you there is the fact that you have all the answers and you can drive things. But it's the minute that you become exponential and leveraged, when you start to ask where it is you're needing to build strength and where it is that you need help with. And if you're not open to that, you don't really get to that super high level. So I think that's great advice. And I really do appreciate the conversation. I mean, people know it's rare that I just bring in interviews and guests, but this has been very, very helpful for myself, as well as I'm sure many people on the podcast. So we'll get this up with a lot of links. And once again, guys, listen, if you have any time at all, I encourage you to take a step back, look at your life, look at your business, get strategic and share the show. This is a great message I think a lot of people will benefit from. So share the show. Hit us up on The Daily Mastermind on Instagram and Facebook. And I'll put the links to Wayne and his company in the show notes. Once again, my name is George Wright III. This has been The Daily Mastermind. Have a phenomenal day.
